I think selective benefits has been the MO for many governments before this too. Pharmacy isn’t a sexy profession, so doesn’t sell papers like nursing, medicine or even education. I think you’d probably find that other AHPs are in the same positions as pharmacy students.

Given state governments are starting to fund uni degrees for nursing, and pushing to abolish HECS debts for medical grads, you’re going to see less students enrol in Pharmacy initially, or transfer to other degrees careers earlier due to the lack of support. Combined with pharmacy being one of the lowest paid tertiary qualified health professions, unless something’s done soon, there’s a real chance it’ll drop off a bit of a cliff.

Lowering entry requirements isn’t the solution to saving a profession either.

$319 per week to solve placement poverty is a small start. However the payment works out to 36% of the minimum wage or $8.39 an hour.

I think it is prudent that we assume the worst when it comes to inhaled combustibles. There is no benefit in muddying the waters around where the data come from. I, personally, will be thinking of vapes as cigarettes until someone can prove they are safer. And you couldn’t pay me enough to sell a death stick.

ConPharm and now CPC is such a wonderful conference. Great CPD, but more importantly networking and an opportunity to meet and have fun with legends like Brooke.

Can’t wait until CPC25 in Adelaide. Register now!

Leo, the pharmacy workforce is one where there is a significant variation between the average hourly rate negotiated by an employee pharmacist and the award wage

It is also one where this isn’t a lot of publicly searchable information about the average wage being paid, and how this wage is benchmarked against the factors that you’ve just mentioned.

For hospital pharmacy, there’s a higher level of pay equity, because there tends to be fewer, higher volume employers, so they at least have access to their own data for wage value comparison

but in the community sector – which employs roughly 70% of pharmacists – the variation in hourly rate between one pharmacist and the next is quite wide

Within this variability is the expression of the real-world gender pay gap. That is, when there is a lot of variability in pay above the award, with a large number of employers, and very little transparency in negotiations, little support in negotiations due to regulatory factors (ie unions are often not included in small business negotiations), and the ability to discuss “the average wage” with colleagues (within the same business and across the profession) basically doesn’t exist… the result is that individuals are left to negotiate or accept a wage without being fully informed

Overlaid upon this is the large body of evidence that shows that female employees are offered lower benefits (or all aspects of employment) than their male colleagues.

Clearer visibility on the “market rate” for a pharmacist would allow us to see if there is in fact a gender pay gap in pharmacy within the above-award space….. and at the same time, this information would help us address it too.

who invited the AI assistant for cross-examination

1) Supply and Demand Dynamics
2) reduced PBS and overall pharmacy remunerations through pbs price disclosure, 60 days dispensing and pressure from discounters business model
3) the nature of the job itself (glass ceiling and no career ladder or hierarchy)
4) pressure from AMA and RACGP to limit the expansion of pharmacist role like US AND UK.

The reliance on PBS as the primary source of remuneration makes significant wage increases difficult
Approximately 70% of Chemist Warehouse’s sales come from front-of-shop items, such as sunscreen, toothbrushes, and makeup, with the remaining 30% from the pharmacy dispensary . This business model exemplifies a shift in focus from traditional pharmacist roles to a discount retail model, potentially diminishing the perceived value of pharmacists’ professional skills.

I don’t agree with the article and I don’t see any pay gap. The discount model is expanding and eventually corporatisation will happen. Until we reach that point, no wage increase will happen.

I take the claims of “very serious harms” as well as the claims of “significant improvement in smoking cessation” equally with grains of salt

in this space, the claims of serious harm and serious benefit are hard to separate from the positions of those who are making the claims

At least on the part of “very serious harms” these claims are coming from a place of public health policy and a genuine fear of normalising an activity that is very widespread.

The real risks with vaping is that there is such a large population of people already vaping and those interested / at risk, that even small increases in the potential risk will amplify quite dramatically…. and if the risks are actually serious (compare for instance with thalidomide, asbestos…. or tobacco itself!) then the scale of the harm will be very large.

The claims of overall benefit are not very reliable *except* the perspective of harm reduction / prohibition harms (we know that prohibition creates harms…. is that harm worse than regulated access?). At the same time, many of the published evidence for harms are usually associated with a lack of regulation – ie ingredients included that would not be present in a regulated market / positioning products to appeal to never-smokers and minors

I await further information before making a decision on where I think the safety lies. I note that I am pretty well informed in this space, so I can only imagine how difficult it is for those with a passing interest in the space.

What is the funding and long-term security for advanced clinical pharmacists working in the MMR space (appropriate remuneration, cap removal, proper travel compensation etc etc)? This information should be released before “reaccreditation” courses are approved. There is absolutely no point working in an advanced clinical capacity if you are working below the poverty index. MMRs should be uncoupled from the CPA.

Soon we will be bleaching and waxing body parts as part of our expanded scope of practice too.

wage growth during Covid was also (rightfully) driven by the hesitancy of pharmacists to work in an environment that was
1) Hostile
2) likely to expose them to an unknown risk

Working in pharmacy is a rewarding role, but only while the people you are helping are polite & respectful.

When you couple an unknown health risk (as it was at the start of Covid) with a population who are scared & impatient & the rate of rudeness increased, then you get reduced pharmacists in the supply pool, which resulted in the wages rising.

The impact of OS trained and OS-full fee graduates of Australian degrees will linger for a few more years – it’s a slow impact with a long tail. The real damage to the wage growth that was occurring during Covid was the introduction of 60 day dispensing.

Coral, I’m glad you’ve commented here, because it allows for some discourse on this topic

First, the comments from Simon aren’t realistic from the perspective of a person who wants to quit, but there is behavior like this now from people who are enticed by the idea of vaping, and this is a reality that we need to take into account whether e-cigarettes are prescription or S3. Simon’s other comments comparing a GPs’ interaction with a person who wants e-cigarettes vs a theoretical interaction between a pharmacist and that same person aren’t helpful and not a good comparison

But

There is a matter that we need to address, and hopefully with your expertise you can address it

One of the primary reasons that vaping products have a low uptake via prescribing is that there are no adequately registered / regulated products in Australia for the purposes of smoking cessation as a therapeutic intervention.

The reluctance of most GPs to be involved prescribing e-cigarettes is matched by the reluctance of pharmacists to be involved in dispensing (or prescribing) of e-cigarettes while there are no regulated products available.

The barriers to uptake of e-cigarettes are various, but the comparison of GP access vs pharmacist access isn’t going to hold up while the issue is the lack of a TGA registered product.

On another matter, I’m wondering if you’ve come across much research or early intervention work looking at the approach to quitting vaping.

The primary focus of motivational counselling in Quit Smoking centres around the negative impacts of smoking on health, but also on the impacts their social life – that is, how it makes a person smell; how it affects their teeth / hair / fingers / breath / skin etc etc

Companies who produce vaping products know this, and they’ve been very intent on developing products that do not have these impacts (or the opposite in the case of flavoured vapes, whether legal here or not); they’ve also done plenty to muddy the water around the ‘safety’ of vapes compared to cigarettes.

In your work or from your colleagues, have you seen any progress in the motivational aspect of the quit vaping strategy?

If you want to thrive then pivot to industries that provide high remuneration. Everyone seems to think they deserve more than others.
The average wage in Australia is around $100,000, the mean less.
Physiotherapists average around $85 to $90,000
I might suggest a quick peek at Seek.

Experienced teachers in WA (goes up each year automatically with experience) get $117,000-$130,000. With 12 weeks off a year. Are you saying pharmacists thrive in comparison? Teaching sure ain’t easy but I wouldn’t say they are hard done by.

Google the most recent pay gap economic survey released this week.

Hard to do unless done collectively

If you’re feeling that your work has little societal value Ingrid, I hope you have a chance to step back and reassess your contributions.

I feel fulfilled in my role as a pharmacist. I genuinely believe I help people when I go to work each day.

I certainly don’t argue that pharmacists are financially undervalued. The fact we receive half the compensation for vaccination compared to GPs for providing the same service is just spitting in our faces.

However, I know I make a difference in the lives of my patients. Sure, (too) much of the work is routine and pointless, but there’s absolutely moments when I know I step in, apply my knowledge and skills, and change the outcome for my patient for the better.

If you’re not getting that chance, please reassess what you’re doing that is stopping you from having that opportunity. The one thing your employer can never take away from you is your own professional judgement. Stand firm by your decisions, do what you know is right for your patients, and go home each day knowing that you’ve helped the people you serve.

Ultimately, the “It’s nothing personal, it’s just business” cuts both ways.

Employees should be prepared to make a case to their employers for why they deserve a pay raise, and constantly revise this.

Is your employer adding extra duties to your job? Ask for appropriate compensation.

Has national Consumer Price Index gone up? Unless your wages also go up, you’ve taken an effective pay cut, since each dollar is worth less than last year.

However, given the lack of business skills taught during a typical B.Pharm degree, it’s hardly surprising most don’t have the knowledge necessary to perform this task. We’re blessed with a cohort of colleagues that are devoted to helping their patients, but lack the skills to help themselves.

Indeed, and I think recent data supports your point.

One of the biggest real wage growth periods in the pharmacy sector has been post-COVID. A major driving force has been lack of new pharmacists, due in part to a lack of overseas migration during lockdowns, plus fewer student graduates.

Without the constant supply of fresh meat for the grinder, many employers were forced to increase salaries to retain existing employees, especially given the heightened demand for healthcare workers.

One of the more recent resources I’ve become grateful to access is the yearly workforce salary and market report from Raven’s.

With the advent of more online resources, both employers and employees can access information on what the local market values their work to be worth. It certainly beats the old grapevine survey of your classmates and former work colleagues on their current pay rate, or a quick job search to find out what rates aren’t currently attractive, if they even list an hourly rate at all.

If anything, I’d argue that Colesworth charted the course for smaller actors to follow in squeezing better margins from suppliers.

It’s hardly surprising that successful, if ethically dubious, business practices will be copied unless made explicitly illegal.

Perhaps a good focus to ‘close the gender gap’ would be focusing on teaching employee pharmacists tactics that they should use to negotiate a fairer remuneration from their employer?

The then commissioner of the ACCC, Alan Fels, happened to agree with those two (one of which was mine).

He sent two serious suits to interview me, they took notes and when I finished, that’s when I found out Alan Fels’ opinion.

I disagreed on the basis that service would be reduced and prices would go up.

The merger never happened.

The problem is (a) nobody knows how to contact the ACCC and (b) of course the Guild represents basically all of us and therefore our objections are redundant.

Nonetheless in this case I also floated in a personal objection, stating the reasons why.

If they want a “flood” of objections, all we have to do is write.

I love our democratic processes and sometimes use them when they are needed.

In this case, the “whingers” are writing to the wrong address.

Try writing directly.

hey Jeremy some owners offer $55 per hour plus super and holiday pay on top for a full time position and get not even one response so it seems to me that Sydney and Melbourne are the most desirable locations (I have proof of zero applications outside these highly desirable locations)

Thank you for explaining this to me. You are right as a woman I don’t prioritse finance

Anecdotally now days no new graduates want to work in retail, PERIOD. Most new graduates want to work in hospital or other fields. Some do it for a year or two to get some money, others refuse to do even this. Most pharmacies have now developed business models based on this .

Obviously nobody really talks about this, because it’s actually a popular policy goal.

Fair point regarding later entry pharmacists, still leaves all of us pre 2009 pharmacists at a loss though. The article rhetoric does point to the government allowing the same work in pharmacy, done predominantly by women, to be invested in at a cheapest rate. But maybe at the end of the day the work itself now has little societal value…

No Ingrid. I think you misunderstood my comment. The low wage issue started occurring in early 2000s when the industry was still male dominated.
Most men left the industry and Pharmacy schools saw very little influx of men into pharmacy after 2009 for this specific reason.

I would ask why would women read the same discussion forums online or get paid these low wages and still decide to enrol in this degree or continue to stay in the industry.

So Dan riddle me this… men leave , women move in (to do the SAME ROLE AND SKILL SET if not a more advanced skill set in many instances) and the now female dominant workforce gets paid less. I recognise that there are commercial disruptors in play. However it is males that are predominantly in the position of decision making at all levels over that same workforce and it’s response to those same pressures …. I would urge you to consider reading the article again. I would point out that the factors about female work type choice you make are only part of the role! The rest is the same role carried out by men previously. Another side point is that industrial relations reforms are there for the benefit of both genders. The role of the pharmacist is more advanced and anchored in STEM than when it was male dominated and yet here we are….

To me, it’s just yet another example of plain old
misogyny – there is no prestige or value in work woman does – hence why feminised professions see dramatic drops in renumeration and conditions as the workforce becomes feminised.

YET! Pharmacy Owners and the Guild are still proportionally more masculine . So guess where the power and prestige are …

I am hopeful that all candidates have nominated for the right reasons – that is, the best outcome for fellow Guild members first and personal glory second.

I am sure that everybody realises that the real goal is to preserve a strong and united group.

It is worth noting that the Labor party in particular is highly skilled at diffractionating pressure groups – i.e. spitting them asunder and blowing them apart.
Like when they formed a GP association to weaken the AMA.

And we have seen the result of that.

Don’t let this happen to us.

They have already included the Society and CWH on the negotiating committee for this purpose.

Furthermore the “Government of Transparency” have callously insisted on “non-disclosure agreements” in this process so that negotiators cannot even confer with members on the government offers – classic Labor tactics.

Currently it is obvious that the Guild representing Community Pharmacy is easily the strongest of the three – on the “care for people” factor alone – but any attempt by individuals to put self-interest first will be seized upon and lead to a split that the government will joyously exploit.

And the Government has gone quiet on us – which may hopefully mean that they are now understanding of a logical viewpoint concerning remuneration justice, our right to survive, and our worth in helping to keep the community healthy.

If not – I believe they know that they will pay on many fronts – and they simply can’t afford that big a battle at this time of almost wholesale community disintegration and chaos of entirely their own making.

We are an apolitical organisation who simply want this and any Government to honour the 1960 Pharmacy act and its promise of fair remuneration.

(By the way – food for thought…. in today’s terms that is a $9.60 dispensing fee – aside from the AHI – and a 33 1/3 markup on ALL ready-prepared prescriptions no matter the cost. Just saying…).

So – good luck to all of us. This will be the most important Guild election in around 30 years – and the Guild needs to emerge the winner or else Banjo Patterson’s Hanrahan will finally be proven right.

Most male pharmacists I know of have also left the field in search of better opportunities with higher pay.

In this context, it seems that men prioritise salary more heavily in their careers, while women value roles that provide flexibility, human interaction and the chance to help others. This difference in job satisfaction priorities has contributed to a shift from a once male-dominated industry to one with an under-representation of men.

In this instance, the chicken (low wages) definitely came before the egg (female dominated industry).

Pharmacy needs the same thing as all allied health. Pay rises commensurate with experience and responsibilities.

You can literally have a 25% increase in pay from just having 5 years of experience in almost all other allied health fields.

With due respect, not all pharmacists are trained up to the same standards. I have worked with many pharmacists from different countries and backgrounds . Some do need more than 12 months internship and not less.

We sort of did in community pharmacy. Traineeship for a year, work as a pharmacist for 1-2 years, manage for 1-2 years then either buy your own or a significant partnership.

They are more than happy to lie to the public, as we saw with their statement on 60dd and possible shortages.

Is this rhetorical? The answer is we are overloading ourselves for the owners who cash in on every script/every service we do. We need billing codes.

This is not working hand in hand though. We are helping the government shirk its responsibilities to GPs. If this initiative was intended as some kind of stop-gap until a longer term solution could come into effect, then fine. But it isn’t, it’s just, “use the cheap pharmacist, that way we don’t need to spend money and actually incentivise new GPs”

See PSA story

Unfortunately stock landed on a dock is a long way from the patient’s hands. But the TGA must count stock issues as resolved as soon as the items are in the country.

There must be strong political pressure to paint a picture of good stock availability. If they were as slow as marking shortages resolved as they are with altering poeple to the shortages they would be closer to reality.

They move on to other higher paying jobs with better working conditions once they have obtained a PR visa?

AJP sometimes shares articles to Facebook that are able to be shared. It would be good if this could be one of them.

Often use the adage. Fast, Good, Cheap – choose 2 out of the 3.

Agreed! I think this needs to published more publicly in hopes of the general public and others getting a better understanding.

Thanks to PSA for their ongoing support and commitment to this vital career pathway. Looking forward to further discussion at CPC24 conference.

They already sold their souls to fatten their bank accounts decades ago. Every penny counts for them and ticking boxes is not an issue if they are being paid. Graduates continue to be exploited for pointless exercises that fills up their petty cash draws, while the public is blindfolded to fund the most fatigued, undervalued and demoralised workforce in the community. Just wait and see how many employees come out fully trained to run the show

60DD doesn’t mean demand will drop. It just means the money will reduce. The need for us will still be there. That’s why all these schemes asking for more work with lower wages are just diluting our profession. They’re going to turn into unprofessional box ticking exercises that devalues what we do and makes money for owners as well as training organisations. We’re being sold down the river for a quick buck. And the government is handing out paddles cause it means it doesn’t have to spend money on Medicare.

It is scary that the QLD gov has caved in to the whims and desire of the PGA. What concerns me the most is that blood pressure & cholesterol management and COPD symptom management were listed on the pilot. These conditions require the skills and expertise of a GP and/or specialist, and to let pharmacists ‘manage’ these conditions is dangerous. In regards to the oral health risk assessment and fluoride application, everyone should see a dentist at least once or twice a year regardless of their oral health. This pilot will provide an excuse for patients to not see their dentist. Furthermore, not all cavities are visible by the naked eye and require the tools and x-ray available in a dental clinic.

Showing empathy and helping the person find the support they need to recover is the best approach. It is important to have these difficult conversations and discuss the implications of the behaviour both for patient safety and for their career. They may need some time away from pharmacy while they recover and this will protect the public from harm. When a person does not have insight and is unwilling to address the problem or withdraw from pharmacy we have an obligation to make a mandatory report if the public are being placed at risk.

I used to know a young pharmacist who stole expired DD (which should have been disposed) for consumption. When the shop assistant discovered that (and I was brought to the attention), we reported it to the owner. But he decided to let it rest instead of taking him to the Board because he had already left the workplace, and we did not want to ruin his future.

With less pay…

Yes. Seems like pecuniary interest territory to me. Especially as there is no alternative for Project Stop transactions which we legally have to record.

No one to report it to in Qld yet. Perhaps it could be brought up with regulators in other jurisdictions though?

Ahh…ok, thanks!

How can we call it full scope when pharmacists need additional training!

“Agree, however it is simply supply versus demand. 60DD economics implies that demand for pharmacists will fall dramatically in the next few years. The Government needs to do the decent thing here. Young pharmacists on poor wages should be “managed out” of the profession quickly. Either to postgraduate medicine courses to satisfy real demand, teaching or STEM work. This is something that should be done at a Government level similar to managing the current medical workforce. We can’t leave it to the market. We should be cutting back on university places and closing pharmacy schools lest Pharmacy be the new “Law degree”. In other words the degree everyone has, but can’t find a job in!”

sad but true indictment of current pharmacy practice. The truth is atm , More is more in pharmacy. There is an incessant push for more front-shop sales, more s3 sales, more scripts…Most pharmacists still abide by the letter of the law, but when it comes to ethical practice, there is much to be said and I just dont trust most pharmacists to do the right thing (I am a pharmacist). I am firmly in the script only club.At least with most GP, patients are guaranteed a consult before the script is issued.

Except that is is illegal for the servo to supply the vapes and we are already seeing crack downs on illegal imports and supplying of vapes. Yes there will be a black market but they will not be so readily available as they have been.

This is why the shopkeeper stereotype is so prevalent amongst the public

subtract non – community pharmacists, and consider workload per pharmacist.

Too many new KAPS pharmacist, so hard to even find Locum job now days .

Tobacco rate is 8.9% vs 7% at a 20fold higher risk than NVPs current usage rrate

Even then, do you really think even a fraction of people affected will go through RX or S3? Hell no, they’ll go to their closest servo because that doesn’t require an appointment, payment, waiting, getting the nth from said dr at appointment, getting the nth degree at the pharmacy and then paying

Just requires paying

So ask yourselves, do you really think people will bother with all that extra effort and cost to have “natural, tobacco or menthol”
No, people opt for the path of least resistance

I spoke to Strong Room and they’re working on a competing product for vaccine claiming on PPA.

Bingo. We failed at Codeine so why would this be any different? If this goes through then get ready to be on the wrong side of history. It’s like we’re actively trying to no longer be a trusted profession.

I agree . I don’t think we should be charged for using a program like Project Stop .
There should be a free government system seeing as it’s compulsory to use Project Stop

An 89% gross margin? Wow. That’s just staggering considering the lack of service and reliability.

This is a reproduced article form the AJP in 1949 – as stated in the introduction. AJP regularly reproduces articles from the past for historical interest. It is not written by Nicholas.

A variation I use is ‘I will be as fast as I safely can’

Now, all banks are privatised (listed entities) and they are driven towards shareholder value, lowering the cost of staff, of their property/lease costs, and of capital…and they really don’t care about small business, despite the rhetoric and motherhood statements.

So, what are you really driving at here Nicholas?

Which hopefully would be incorporated into masters and bachelor degrees in the future so that future graduates are already trained post registration.

At the very least “additional training” to be provided by PGA, ACP, or PSA as the RTO.
Huge earner for them.

Easier said than done.

I agree with you, but you know how hard it is too.

You’re under no obligation to provide advice on that product. In fact, you probably shouldn’t because you have not screened the patient to determine whether the product is suitable or not. You don’t need to accept the legal liability for a product you have not sold. Let the customer seek advice from the pharmacy that owes them that obligation.

Are they? STILL SOLICITING BRIBES!

Coles and Woolies have been good for competition? Have you not followed the Senate inquiry into the supermarkets and how they treat suppliers? We already know that CWH employs some of the same tactics as the supermarkets when dealing with their suppliers

But as an owner you would do quite well

Or busy waging war against the ALP…

I do hope for the sheer brightness and intelligence of those in this industry, others wake up and discuss this circus, common sense becoming common; the truth will have its time.

Unlawful mandates coming to fruition (), SPONTANEOUS QLD Health mandate repeal from Sept 2023 (.) yet university students STILL REQUIRED for COVID vaccination, push for independent senate enquiry into increase deaths around COVID19…

A few Australian politicians you may like to view the opinion of..
– Senator Ralph Babet
– Senator Alex Antic
– Senator Malcolm Roberts
– Sarah Game

A copy of the Guild’s submitted response is available from our website (after member login).

The Guild has also met with the ACCC to discuss our response and our concerns about the proposed merger in detail, and we will continue to advocate to the ACCC on this matter.

The ACCC has a dedicated webpage for the proposed merger for interested parties and individuals to follow updates:

Anthony Tassone
National Vice President (Health Economics and Policy), Pharmacy Guild of Australia

The YES case has been very strong, pushed by investors, the media, consumers and interested parties. The NO case seems very weak and silent to me.

The reverse takeover of Sigma by Chemist Warehouse is a huge deal to our industry. Bigger than Wesfarmers buying API. Bigger than 60 day dispensing. These guys are going to get a lot of cash from new shareholders and a lot of market power. They may even become more powerful than the Pharmacy Guild. Has anyone considered what they might do with all this market share and market power? Has anyone considered how clever their legal team has been in the past and what they may be able to do moving forward?

If this goes ahead, is it fair that Coles and Woolworths should not be allowed to own pharmacies? It would be good for competition.

Is there any other way to actually access project stop now? It all seems a bit dodgy that you have to pay to put these records through when it’s required in some jurisdictions, especially when it was fine for them to offer it for free until now… ???? ????

And yes, it crashes or freezes every other day with no rhyme or reason.

That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is when it is in dispute whether an item has been paid for or not and the customer does not have a receipt, it is easy enough to check the POS record of sales. Whether/how security checks every customer exiting the store is a matter for the store’s policies and security personnel. Many customers refuse to accept receipts when they are printed for them.

I agree with you almost completely, I think that maybe the only thing we’re missing here is that it seems quite likely that vaping causes very serious harms. Some researchers are talking it being worse than smoking. Your discussion above is thoughtful and comprehensive but we’re not talking about just another quitting aid. We’re potentially discussing introducing a terrible harm into pharmacy and I think the risks outweigh the very dilute benefits you’ve outlined above.

I agree that there is a place and I also agree that the place is not pharmacy

The development of the new Qld legislation has been happening for several years now, with many refinments. This process was to try and reduce and eliminate as many loopholes as possible.

The limit is an interest in up to 5 pharmacies in Qld (except Mater Hospital with a limit of 6).

Every pharmacy needs to apply for a licence. Through this application process the ownership structures will be revewied as well as leases, franchise and banner agreements, supplier agreements and management structures. The model is designed so that owners must prove they are above board before approval rather than hoping they don’t get caught. The review of other agreements will allow for performance based or exorbinant fess to be used as a way of exerting a pecuniary or controling interest.

The list of owners will be made public to allow for easier scrutiny of owners’ interests.

There is no grandfathering except for Marter Hospital and friendly societies existing before 29/04/2005. Any other ownership structure that does not comply with the legistlation will either need to restructure, be sold or close.

The Pharmacy Ownership Council must consist of at least 5 members with at least one pharmacy owner and one employee pharmacist. The remining members must have relevant expertise in law, accounting, financial management, business, pharmacy business or another skill deemed important by the minister or representative of the consumer.

You can find the details of the bill here

your analogy of the tobacco industry is spot on, yet there is a place for vaping as a quit smoking intervention…. but despite working in this space for a while now, I’m not convinced for the effectiveness of them even in a fully supported multidisciplinary-team quit approach

First things first – there are 2 reasons people want vaping products
1) To vape
2) To quit smoking

(and some blend of both, since many smokers see vaping only forever as a legitimate quit outcome).

If vaping products were to be scheduled as Pharmacist Only, the time needed to adequately deliver a Quit service aligned with the dispensing of these products would make the price of them exorbitant….. and since there is no regulation that holds any health professional to a standard of quit smoking intervention, the liklihood that this is implemented in every pharmacy providing these as an S3 product would be very very low.

If the purpose for the purchase is to vape (which is not a health intervention) this makes it illegal to sell them to a person as a S3 product, as the pharmacist is obligated by law to establish a therapeutic need. Noone is going to have trouble getting around this issue, since everyone seeking them will say “i need them to quit smoking”

The long-term health effects of vaping aren’t very well known yet for various reasons (including the pollution of the research by tobacco companies, making those publications less than worthless). We do know the long-term impacts of nicotine without combustion (thanks to NRT… which btw are all tobacco products) so the perception that the nicotine itself is as dangerous as smoking is nonsensical. What we don’t have is an understanding of is the impact of nicotine and excipients in vaping directly on the pulmonary epithelium and deeper tissues.

What we also do not have is a fit-for-purpose clinical approach to quit vaping. I teach in quit smoking courses, and I deliver sessions at conferences on quit smoking and now on quit vaping, and the biggest issue is that quit smoking relies on 3 factors
1) pharmaceutical intervention to quell nicotine withdrawal
2) Psychosocial support (family, QUIT counsellors, etc) to assist with habitual remodeling
3) self-perception of the harms of smoking as a cognitive disincentive to smoking (ie cost, smell, cosmetic issues such as damage to teeth hair skin fingers, and health)

The last one is very powerful in the quit approach while often overlooked (and gets back to the issue I mentioned above where it takes time to offer a good quit service to a person seeking a quit intervention). We don’t have this for vaping.

There is a lot of public discourse on the health impacts of smoking and of the health impacts of vaping, and the problem is, vapers and smokers who want to transition to vaping DO NOT BELIEVE the health claims about vaping at all

(in fact, in surveys about smoking, about 10% of people do not believe the health claims made about smoking…..)

This is a big deal. If there is a genuine approach to making vaping *as a health intervention* schedule 3, it cannot be because the prescription model hasn’t worked…. because the reason the prescription model will struggle is what I have described above…… we need a evidence-based structured approach to motivational counselling in vaping cessation that doesn’t yet exist. If vaping becomes S3 without such a clinical approach existing, then we will definitely end up in a scenario where pharmacies are de facto tobacconists selling vaping products regardless of the reason and with little impact on quit rates.

the organised crime part is real

There have been 2 shop fires within a block of where I live in Melbourne, associated with retailers either refusing to sell, or selling a ‘competitors’ products

the thing is this is already rampant, kids start in primary school and its putting ones head in the stand pretending its not happening. I have read articles about organised crime threatening tobacconists who want to stop selling their illegal product.
It there. So why not legalise it? at least have some control of the contents and reduce funding organised crime.
I would rather rampant smokers vape and afford their medication and better food. Because the poorest most disadvantaged often smoke and will feed their addiction before themselves and before their kids. No point pretending otherwise.
I do not think pharmacy is the place for it – but there is a place for vapes and i don’t think we should police adults choices ( I’m pro drug legalisation in general)

So my inaction justifies the inaction of a group who purports to support the pharmacy industry? Check your logic my friend.

Well, I whinged here in the comments in AJP. But that’s the only voice I have. The voices who get listened to have too many vested interests.

What did you do John Smith?

“In the 1970s, as more and more smokers began worrying about their risk of cancer, the tobacco industry responded by introducing “light” and “low tar” cigarettes, promoting them as a healthier alternative to regular cigarettes.”

Now, does anyone reading this, wish that pharmacies had believed the cigarette companies’ nonsense and started selling light cigarettes as a healthier option? Keeping in mind of course that light cigarettes are now implicated in a higher rate of non small cell lung cancer?

Do we really want to be on the wrong side of history here? It’s bad enough that we sell homeopathic snake oil, do we really need to start killing people too? I’m a huge proponent of harm minimisation but this is a step too far. It’s been floated before that cigarettes themselves should be sold in pharmacy because it would give smokers a chance to seek advice about quitting. Do we want to introduce that too? Honestly, this is crazy, I can’t believe fully qualified pharmacists are actually advocating for the sale of these death sticks in disguise. Let’s not put sales before professionalism, please.

Well the article would indicate that not enough of you did. And again, my inaction doesn’t justify yours. Does CAPS require that John Smith does things before they do?

Also, just because I call out your organisation for its embarrassing and ineffective strategies doesn’t mean I’m a troll. Trolls say things that aren’t clearly true.

We put submissions in personally. Did you? Too busy trolling? Making ridiculously unfounded statements in the comments of AJP. Pull your head and put your name to your comments.

Ahh God bless em. It seems that the Guild is practising what they preach…

The Guild are offering $35-45 for a job in Perth

No one will care until all the little guys are driven out of business. Then they will all suddenly be crying out that there are no local pharmacists to take care of them when they get sick. We are good enough for advice and to sign stat decs for nothing, but no way would they dream of ever shopping with us. I always get people coming into the shop asking for medicine advice. The label is clearly marked as coming from CWH. Why didn’t they ask the pharmacist there? I think you know why.

Good Idea! At least the customers won’t complain about the price of them. It is only too expensive when it is a cholesterol medicine! (that costs 7.70 per month)

cant get pharmacists for even $60 an hour ….fantastic location but not sydney or melbourne 🙁

Ring the local school and ask for either the Indigenous Liaison Officer (CEC) or the Principal and put in a complaint. If that doesn’t get you anywhere, escalate the complaint up through the Education Department.

Now, the big question is do most pharmacists want to work in rural areas if given the choice between the two? The biggest problem with recruitment agencies is finding pharmacists to work in regional/rural areas. The same applies for the severe shortage of GPs in rural areas.

I am all for filling the deficiencies in our regional/rural areas with foreign trained pharmacists as they can earn a very high salary (much higher than our metropolitan areas) and comfortable life. But let’s be real, most pharmacists (including local and foreign trained pharmacists) are attracted by the allure of metropolitan living. If you work as a pharmacist in a metropolitan area, it’ll be difficult for you to notice any shortages in these areas. The flooding of the jobs market with foreign pharmacists will most likely worsen the jobs market and keep wages suppressed in metropolitan areas.

While I do not agree in your suggestion in stopping the KAPS exams, I believe that foreign trained pharmacists should be strongly incentivized to work in regional/rural areas and/or have long term contracts (3-5 years) tied to their permanent residency application. Of course, these pharmacists must be paid handsomely with adequate support provided.

I’m envisioning a dystopian pharmacy world where pharmacies in metropolitan areas will be swamped with poorly trained pharmacists while the good ones leave the industry in droves. I reckon we’re already nearing this end ‘goal’ and I estimate it’ll take another few more years for this to fully manifest.

All jokes aside, they probably won’t remove the 1 year internship and requirements for pharmacists entering via the KAPS stream. For the CAPS stream, most people will just do a short internship with the required oral examinations at the end. Personally for the CAPS stream, removing the internship period is a no from me as I believe that these pharmacists will need to get used to the PBS system and the classifications of drugs in the pharmacy. In regards to countries to add to the CAPS stream, I can’t think of any other countries besides the current countries (Canada, Ireland, US, UK) due to language barriers or differences in dispensing practices.

All hail the Pharmacy Guild of Australia!

Some discounters do indeed pay close to that rate and some of these poor souls are working in sweatshop like conditions. My advice to these individuals is to either find a different pharmacy to work for or to ditch community pharmacy altogether. Why work for a discounter when your salary is likewise ‘discounted’.

Is slowly happening. And it will as this fake shortage keep going

Seriously? Who pays a pharmacist $35.00 an hour? I almost wish I could, but I wouldn’t insult them.

Just wait until they push for technicians to check scripts…. its already starting

This has to be the perfect combo to keep hourly rates circa $35s/hr

Salute to the pharmacy bodies

Read Pharmacy News – January 9, 2024. APC to fast track overseas professionals (pharmacists) . In the near future, some overseas pharmacists may not need to do full internship at all. Guild and PSA are offering job-ready courses post- KAPS exam according to the article.

Therein should lie a problem. Doubt they’ll have the guts to block it. Who cares right? It’s just one of the best healthcare systems in the world, let’s just slowly dismantle it….

You may be right about effective control & loopholes. This is the failure of legislations & policing, akin to someone speeding. If they are not caught, the law still prohibits speeding. Sometimes they may challenge the infraction, and even get away on a technicality. Nevertheless, it is still a net benefit to have a law that prohibit speeding.
It is the right thing to have restriction on ownership & on speeding.

Just found it curious that the single Carrum Downs polling booth where CAPS were active had an 8% swing away from the ALP where surrounding booths had less than 4%. Food for thought. Five more booths like that could have cost the ALP that seat.

Squabbling with our GP colleagues doesn’t help either of our causes. GPs have been short changed by successive governments in the same way that we have. We should be banding together. Yet another thing our short-sighted Guild colleagues have dropped the ball on. Our representatives have constantly been pushing for more money rather than a collaborative relationship with our closest ally. What’s good for GPs is generally good for pharmacists. My GP has encouraged me to vaccinate as many of his patients as I can because he doesn’t have capacity. If we set aside our dumb political representatives, who seem more interested in what suits their multi-million dollar businesses, then we could actually have a symbiotic relationship with our colleagues. Instead, we fight over the table scraps thrown at us by tight arse governments.

Come on Paul, we’re pharmacists here, you’re not trying to convince a bunch of people that don’t understand our industry. Are you trying to say that Guild member pharmacists don’t own more than 5 pharmacies, shirking ownership rules by buying interstate? You’re telling us that the Guild came out strongly against this practice at some point? I’d love to see evidence of this. Guild members were all too happy to utilise these loopholes and never seek to close them. It’s only now, when it’s coming back to bite them on the bum that they’re crying foul.

Obviously employers need to pay more to attract skilled labour to areas where there is less of it.

I think you’re giving CAPS a lot of credit here. The Labor government has really dropped the ball since it took office. The idea that people care that much about us is a tad naïve in my view. People don’t even understand what we do. We, as a group can’t even decide on a way forward. I don’t think a bunch of childish protests have really made that much of a difference

Thank you so much Kay ????

Thank you so much Amy ????

Perhaps you don’t understand how strong the objections some people have are. For example, say you lived in a country where the death penalty applies, and you object to it, but were asked to supply the drugs required. What if you were forced to refer to someone else? I’m sure your wouldn’t. You would say “it’s up to you to find someone else, I’m not getting involved”, and that’s exactly how people feel about abortion, assisted dying and gender transition as well.

As Tim stated a pharmacist can own the maximum number of pharmacies as legislated in each state and territory. I could be mistaken, but I believe it is 5 in each (might be 6 in one of the states). So, in theory these 13 individuals could own 13 x 5 x 8 = 520 pharmacies in total across Australia (and that’s without any dubious franchising structures).
Ideally it should be a maximum of 5 per pharmacist nationwide, but as ownership laws are state based it would require all the states and territories agreeing to it, and as a Guild councillor pointed out to me the chances of that happening are less than zero.

Just as health care professionals are allowed to not be part of the voluntary assisted dying process in Victoria, the same privilege should be extended to other areas (abortion, gender transition medications and more).

And Australians need to have a proper read of the Cass Review from the UK on gender transition, rather than assume they know what is best and be determined to push ahead.

This is very true. Working rural/remote you pretty much work Monday to Saturday, with maybe one day off, where the shops are actually closed. It is very hard to achieve a good work/life balance as you are working at least 10 hours everyday. So where does that “life” part come in?… no time to meet someone and/or start a family, or spend time with family or friends. Isolation is a very large factor at the end of the day. This is turn, combined with the every day stress of pharmacy life, eventually leads to burn out and/or mental health conditions….

The Guild doesn’t approve the sale of pharmacies, the state regulators do. It seems easy to blame the Guild for everything even though it is not their responsibility.

You may respect it, many others don’t. But then need to refer is the problem, as you are still helping them to access something you have a conscientious objection to. That is where they problem lies.

We have a duty of care, and that does not extend to an expectation to end life (of dying person, foetus) etc, and we have a duty to do no harm, and arguably some of what happens in gender clinics and associated care (puberty blockers, gender transition surgery etc) does exactly that, often to people unable to provide informed consent due to age.

I don’t recall hearing anything about so called pretenders talking down to pharmacists who refuse to supply on conscientious grounds. It’ll be great if you could elaborate more on this or provide some sort of evidence to back this up.

I can understand that some pharmacists have strong moral or ethic values that prevent them from supplying certain medications, and I totally respect that. I know some pharmacists who do not supply the EHC due to their Catholic beliefs and I respect that. The same concept applies to pharmacists who refuse to supply voluntary assisted dying medications. What is not fine is the failure/refusal to refer them to other healthcare professionals/GPs etc. At the end of the day, we have a duty of care for our patients and referring them to others is the least we can do if a supply is refused.

I can understand where you’re coming from and it is respectable. I agree with D that getting nicotine liquid is fairly easy especially in metropolitan areas. The main question is would you prefer the underground sale of nicotine juices (which could potentially be contaminated or tainted with dangerous chemicals) or allow pharmacists to sell TGA regulated products with caution and checks.

I was once a smoking cessation counsellor back in the UK, and I have seen some individuals struggle with NRT products as these individuals are more addicted to the ritual of inhaling something through their mouth instead of the nicotine buzz. Yes, nicotine inhalators do exist, but those are awful to use and you get this burning dusty sensation while inhaling through them. Yes, they can see their GP to get a prescription for nicotine for vapes, but not all GPs do them and they most likely don’t bulk bill. I can see the appeal of down regulating nicotine vape to S3, but of course there will need to be tight regulations in regards to nicotine concentration, flavour and who the pharmacist will be able to sell it to.

an individual pharmacist can own the maximum number of pharmacies allowable in each state.. as noted above by John Dowling.. How that individual manages their clinical oversight/governance obligations is another matter..
and for the record.. in NSW () it was GOVERNMENT that increased the number of pharmacies an individual can own because they reckoned it would increase competition.. go figure..

Certainly this aspect of care and trust in an individualised personal service is invisible to the current economics of competition & evaluating return on investment. This measures consumerism.
The macnamarian fallacy continues unchecked to the detriment of community and of care.

I’m against vaping, and s3 vapes. However I think the idea is that people will access these via illegal means anyway. At least with pharmacist intervention there’s the possibility of harm minimisation.

A staff member of mine buys these from tobacco shops in Perth. They just ask her if she’s with the police.

I don’t have an answer. I don’t think there is one. At least not an easy one.